Gaming Community Debates 'Indie' Label, Creating AA Studio Identity Opportunity

Published on 06/08/2025Trend Spotting / Early Adopter Signals

The pushback against misrepresenting team sizes, especially the 'small indie team' narrative for larger productions like Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, underscores a growing demand for transparency and a more nuanced understanding of game development scales. Developers are speaking out against simplistic or misleading portrayals, calling them "dangerous" because they can set unrealistic expectations for both consumers and aspiring developers, and potentially undervalue the extensive collaborative efforts involved in modern game creation.

This creates a significant commercial and marketing opportunity for studios and publishers to champion "Transparent Development Narratives."

  • For Studios (especially 'AA' or mid-sized): Instead of being ambiguously labeled or forced into a "scrappy" narrative that doesn't fit, these studios can build brand trust by being upfront about their team size, structure, and the collaborative nature of their projects (including partnerships or key outsourcing). Marketing can focus on:

    • "Right-Sized Excellence": Positioning themselves as having the optimal team size and resources to deliver ambitious, polished games with a focused creative vision, without the perceived overhead of AAA or the resource constraints of true micro-indies.
    • "Craftsmanship at Scale": Highlighting the expertise and collaborative effort of their actual team, showcasing how many skilled individuals contribute to the final product. This can become a mark of quality and professionalism.
    • Authentic Storytelling: Sharing genuine behind-the-scenes insights that reflect the true scale and complexity, educating consumers and fostering appreciation.
  • For Marketing Agencies & PR:

    • Developing New Categories/Descriptors: Similar to the 'AA' distinction, agencies can help create and popularize language that better reflects the diverse reality of game development beyond "indie" and "AAA."
    • Ethical Marketing Campaigns: Championing campaigns that celebrate the actual teams and processes, moving away from potentially misleading "underdog" narratives when they don't apply. This builds credibility for both the agency and the client.
    • Educating Influencers & Media: Working with media outlets and influencers like Geoff Keighley to encourage more accurate and nuanced reporting on development team sizes and structures, thereby managing industry and consumer expectations more responsibly.

This shift caters to an audience increasingly weary of marketing spin and appreciative of authenticity, allowing studios to build stronger, more honest relationships with their communities by accurately representing the significant human effort behind their games.

Origin Reddit Post

r/gamingnews

No, Geoff Keighley—Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 was not made by a team of 'under 30 developers,' and devs say repeating the myth is 'a dangerous path' | SGF's fascination with small staff size

Posted by u/ControlCAD06/08/2025

Top Comments

u/Blacksad9999
The credits have almost 300 people (Edit: 412 people), and it had a budget of over $60 million from Kepler interactive. They had enough money to bankroll getting Andy Serkis, Ben Starr, and
u/Inuma
Some people online claimed the Sandfall folks were racist and were ginning up controversy in regards to a claim without evidence that they weren't allowing people to form up with them. Hila
u/SartenSinAceite
I don't recall right now which game it was, but I saw in the credits that they had hired other studios to help them. Maybe one of the Yakuza games.
u/NorsiiiiR
>not an indie dev company Indie = independent They are not owned by or part of a publicly listed conglomerate or VC firm, etc. ergo they are independent.
u/ControlCAD
>While opening last night's Summer Game Fest showcase, host and Game Awards founder Geoff Keighley noted how 2025 has been marked by the surprise successes of smaller game projects. Alongs
u/SartenSinAceite
I don't recall right now which game it was, but I saw in the credits that they had hired other studios to help them. Maybe one of the Yakuza games.
u/mazaa66
Give me the source on the budget and and source on all the different out sourced members that makes it 300 as you said Production Partners Gameplay + AnimationSeung-yun Kim, Lucas Yu, Min-r
u/mazaa66
Give me the source on the budget and and source on all the different out sourced members that makes it 300 as you said Production Partners Gameplay + AnimationSeung-yun Kim, Lucas Yu, Min-r
u/Possible_Jello8489
Why are you lying? [The CEO literally said the budget costed less than Mirror's edge catalyst which's budget was less than $20 million and that most people are estimating the game's budget "W
u/Blacksad9999
The people who did the combat? They were outsourced. The people who did the music? They were outsourced, and SandFall only has a few musicians on staff. The people who did the animations from
u/Possible_Jello8489
Why are you lying? [The CEO literally said the budget costed less than Mirror's edge catalyst which's budget was less than $20 million and that most people are estimating the game's budget "W
u/MAQS357
The credits on Kingdom Come 2 is 1600 people and the core team was 250. The Credits on all other major AAA with a core team of 300 to 400 has total credits for 3000 peoples on average. Exp
u/MAQS357
Oh their dev history IS UNIQUE. There is no other studio in the history of the industry that has gotten this level of critical and commercial success with their first game AND having none of
u/ControlCAD
>While opening last night's Summer Game Fest showcase, host and Game Awards founder Geoff Keighley noted how 2025 has been marked by the surprise successes of smaller game projects. Alongs
u/Blacksad9999
The people who did the combat? They were outsourced. The people who did the music? They were outsourced, and SandFall only has a few musicians on staff. The people who did the animations from
u/Possible_Jello8489
Why are you lying? [The CEO literally said the budget costed less than Mirror's edge catalyst which's budget was less than $20 million and that most people are estimating the game's budget "W
u/Blacksad9999
The credits have almost 300 people (Edit: 412 people), and it had a budget of over $60 million from Kepler interactive. They had enough money to bankroll getting Andy Serkis, Ben Starr, and
u/teabagfrfr
For everyone imo. Indie games made by actually "just 30 people" will unfairly get compared to Clair Obsur, and investors in big studios will use it as an excuse to lay off more people. It al
u/Chalibard
Sandfall interactive do recognize them and explicitly says in french interview that they couldn't find this level of animation quality and style in France, the korean 8 person team (4 full ti
u/Possible_Jello8489
Notions like this is *exactly* why this conversation is so dangerous and misleading. What the person above posted was around how many people are **credited** on expedition 33. Most develope
u/OneIllustrious1860
Only company that has "thousands of devs" working on ine game is Rockstar. Everyone else is in the few hundreds.
u/BronzIsten
Reddit decided they want to believe in that lie from the article just so they can have something to bash the game over. Now that the racist claims didnt work they found another angle they can
u/SartenSinAceite
I don't recall right now which game it was, but I saw in the credits that they had hired other studios to help them. Maybe one of the Yakuza games.
u/Dontevenwannacomment
i think we have to distinguish "devs" as in musicians and translators and "devs" as in core teams of designers
u/Blacksad9999
The credits have almost 300 people (Edit: 412 people), and it had a budget of over $60 million from Kepler interactive. They had enough money to bankroll getting Andy Serkis, Ben Starr, and
u/Few-Improvement-5655
I'd argue that most (not all) of those listed are not developers, but assets the core development team made use of. A developer, to me, has to have some sort of creative input. And other com
u/ControlCAD
>While opening last night's Summer Game Fest showcase, host and Game Awards founder Geoff Keighley noted how 2025 has been marked by the surprise successes of smaller game projects. Alongs
u/MAQS357
The credits on Kingdom Come 2 is 1600 people and the core team was 250. The Credits on all other major AAA with a core team of 300 to 400 has total credits for 3000 peoples on average. Exp
u/NorsiiiiR
>not an indie dev company Indie = independent They are not owned by or part of a publicly listed conglomerate or VC firm, etc. ergo they are independent.
u/ControlCAD
>While opening last night's Summer Game Fest showcase, host and Game Awards founder Geoff Keighley noted how 2025 has been marked by the surprise successes of smaller game projects. Alongs
u/Blacksad9999
Well, they're certainly not the "scrappy little passion project" developer people making them out to be. They had a sizeable budget from Kepler Interactive, and 412 contributing people. Othe
u/OneIllustrious1860
Only company that has "thousands of devs" working on ine game is Rockstar. Everyone else is in the few hundreds.
u/Inuma
Some people online claimed the Sandfall folks were racist and were ginning up controversy in regards to a claim without evidence that they weren't allowing people to form up with them. Hila
u/BronzIsten
Reddit decided they want to believe in that lie from the article just so they can have something to bash the game over. Now that the racist claims didnt work they found another angle they can
u/rememeber711997
Absolutely agree One of the best parts of E33 is the combat system: Style-wise, it's heavily borrowed from Persona 5. Mechanical control and animation slickness wise, it's built by a small
u/Possible_Jello8489
Lies, Lies, Lies. Jesus Christ, lying straight out of your ass. Look at the credits. There were 400 people *credited.* If we only count the developers working on UE5 (like how we do for ever
u/MAQS357
The credits on Kingdom Come 2 is 1600 people and the core team was 250. The Credits on all other major AAA with a core team of 300 to 400 has total credits for 3000 peoples on average. Exp
u/DarkIcedWolf
It’s about 200 total devs, a fucking far cry from the thousands at major companies but since it’s ~200 it’s actually not an indie dev company. It’s like a grey area, it’s more like AA games b
u/rememeber711997
Absolutely agree One of the best parts of E33 is the combat system: Style-wise, it's heavily borrowed from Persona 5. Mechanical control and animation slickness wise, it's built by a small
u/Dontevenwannacomment
i think we have to distinguish "devs" as in musicians and translators and "devs" as in core teams of designers
u/anonerble
A dangerous path.... for who? Sounds like a movie ceo villain
u/Possible_Jello8489
So the big problem with this is, (we can see it in the comments from people who do not understand that credits =/= developers) **is that you're just using another metric, to compare it to gam
u/ControlCAD
>While opening last night's Summer Game Fest showcase, host and Game Awards founder Geoff Keighley noted how 2025 has been marked by the surprise successes of smaller game projects. Alongs
u/MAQS357
The credits on Kingdom Come 2 is 1600 people and the core team was 250. The Credits on all other major AAA with a core team of 300 to 400 has total credits for 3000 peoples on average. Exp
u/mazaa66
Source on: the budget was over 60 million Because the dev team has said it was far less what people have estimated + core team was 33 people and of course they have outsourced Testers, musi
u/mazaa66
Source on: the budget was over 60 million Because the dev team has said it was far less what people have estimated + core team was 33 people and of course they have outsourced Testers, musi
u/mazaa66
Source on: the budget was over 60 million Because the dev team has said it was far less what people have estimated + core team was 33 people and of course they have outsourced Testers, musi
u/RobbSol
Why is the media so fixated on distorting the truth? Why does it matter how many people worked on a game? Stop this nonsense.
u/mazaa66
Give me the source on the budget and and source on all the different out sourced members that makes it 300 as you said Production Partners Gameplay + AnimationSeung-yun Kim, Lucas Yu, Min-r
u/Chalibard
Sandfall interactive do recognize them and explicitly says in french interview that they couldn't find this level of animation quality and style in France, the korean 8 person team (4 full ti
u/rememeber711997
Absolutely agree One of the best parts of E33 is the combat system: Style-wise, it's heavily borrowed from Persona 5. Mechanical control and animation slickness wise, it's built by a small
u/Jaebird0388
Racist claims? What the fuck??
u/teabagfrfr
For everyone imo. Indie games made by actually "just 30 people" will unfairly get compared to Clair Obsur, and investors in big studios will use it as an excuse to lay off more people. It al
u/Blacksad9999
The people who did the combat? They were outsourced. The people who did the music? They were outsourced, and SandFall only has a few musicians on staff. The people who did the animations from
u/OneIllustrious1860
Only company that has "thousands of devs" working on ine game is Rockstar. Everyone else is in the few hundreds.
u/Chalibard
Sandfall interactive do recognize them and explicitly says in french interview that they couldn't find this level of animation quality and style in France, the korean 8 person team (4 full ti
u/anonerble
A dangerous path.... for who? Sounds like a movie ceo villain
u/mazaa66
Give me the source on the budget and and source on all the different out sourced members that makes it 300 as you said Production Partners Gameplay + AnimationSeung-yun Kim, Lucas Yu, Min-r
u/Inuma
Some people online claimed the Sandfall folks were racist and were ginning up controversy in regards to a claim without evidence that they weren't allowing people to form up with them. Hila
u/Aggravating-Dot132
Skyrim was done by 100 devs.
u/BronzIsten
Reddit decided they want to believe in that lie from the article just so they can have something to bash the game over. Now that the racist claims didnt work they found another angle they can
u/Possible_Jello8489
Notions like this is *exactly* why this conversation is so dangerous and misleading. What the person above posted was around how many people are **credited** on expedition 33. Most develope
u/NorsiiiiR
>not an indie dev company Indie = independent They are not owned by or part of a publicly listed conglomerate or VC firm, etc. ergo they are independent.
u/Possible_Jello8489
So the big problem with this is, (we can see it in the comments from people who do not understand that credits =/= developers) **is that you're just using another metric, to compare it to gam
u/Chalibard
Sandfall interactive do recognize them and explicitly says in french interview that they couldn't find this level of animation quality and style in France, the korean 8 person team (4 full ti
u/MAQS357
Oh their dev history IS UNIQUE. There is no other studio in the history of the industry that has gotten this level of critical and commercial success with their first game AND having none of
u/Possible_Jello8489
Lies, Lies, Lies. Jesus Christ, lying straight out of your ass. Look at the credits. There were 400 people *credited.* If we only count the developers working on UE5 (like how we do for ever
u/Blacksad9999
Well, they're certainly not the "scrappy little passion project" developer people making them out to be. They had a sizeable budget from Kepler Interactive, and 412 contributing people. Othe
u/Possible_Jello8489
So the big problem with this is, (we can see it in the comments from people who do not understand that credits =/= developers) **is that you're just using another metric, to compare it to gam
u/anonerble
A dangerous path.... for who? Sounds like a movie ceo villain
u/anonerble
A dangerous path.... for who? Sounds like a movie ceo villain
u/Blacksad9999
Well, they're certainly not the "scrappy little passion project" developer people making them out to be. They had a sizeable budget from Kepler Interactive, and 412 contributing people. Othe
u/Blacksad9999
The credits have almost 300 people (Edit: 412 people), and it had a budget of over $60 million from Kepler interactive. They had enough money to bankroll getting Andy Serkis, Ben Starr, and
u/Possible_Jello8489
Notions like this is *exactly* why this conversation is so dangerous and misleading. What the person above posted was around how many people are **credited** on expedition 33. Most develope
u/DarkIcedWolf
It’s about 200 total devs, a fucking far cry from the thousands at major companies but since it’s ~200 it’s actually not an indie dev company. It’s like a grey area, it’s more like AA games b
u/DarkIcedWolf
It’s about 200 total devs, a fucking far cry from the thousands at major companies but since it’s ~200 it’s actually not an indie dev company. It’s like a grey area, it’s more like AA games b
u/Dontevenwannacomment
i think we have to distinguish "devs" as in musicians and translators and "devs" as in core teams of designers
u/bboy267
Microsoft paid for the marketing. That was what they used their GP funding for 
u/Jaebird0388
Racist claims? What the fuck??
u/DarkIcedWolf
It’s about 200 total devs, a fucking far cry from the thousands at major companies but since it’s ~200 it’s actually not an indie dev company. It’s like a grey area, it’s more like AA games b
u/Blacksad9999
Well, they're certainly not the "scrappy little passion project" developer people making them out to be. They had a sizeable budget from Kepler Interactive, and 412 contributing people. Othe
u/SartenSinAceite
I don't recall right now which game it was, but I saw in the credits that they had hired other studios to help them. Maybe one of the Yakuza games.
u/Jaebird0388
Racist claims? What the fuck??
u/Possible_Jello8489
Why are you lying? [The CEO literally said the budget costed less than Mirror's edge catalyst which's budget was less than $20 million and that most people are estimating the game's budget "W
u/Possible_Jello8489
Lies, Lies, Lies. Jesus Christ, lying straight out of your ass. Look at the credits. There were 400 people *credited.* If we only count the developers working on UE5 (like how we do for ever
u/rememeber711997
Absolutely agree One of the best parts of E33 is the combat system: Style-wise, it's heavily borrowed from Persona 5. Mechanical control and animation slickness wise, it's built by a small
u/teabagfrfr
For everyone imo. Indie games made by actually "just 30 people" will unfairly get compared to Clair Obsur, and investors in big studios will use it as an excuse to lay off more people. It al
u/Jaebird0388
Racist claims? What the fuck??
u/Aggravating-Dot132
Was talking about "200 is an indie studio". If you don't want such comments - don't write yours.
u/SartenSinAceite
I don't recall right now which game it was, but I saw in the credits that they had hired other studios to help them. Maybe one of the Yakuza games.
u/Possible_Jello8489
Lies, Lies, Lies. Jesus Christ, lying straight out of your ass. Look at the credits. There were 400 people *credited.* If we only count the developers working on UE5 (like how we do for ever
u/NorsiiiiR
>not an indie dev company Indie = independent They are not owned by or part of a publicly listed conglomerate or VC firm, etc. ergo they are independent.
u/Dontevenwannacomment
i think we have to distinguish "devs" as in musicians and translators and "devs" as in core teams of designers
u/Inuma
Some people online claimed the Sandfall folks were racist and were ginning up controversy in regards to a claim without evidence that they weren't allowing people to form up with them. Hila
u/RobbSol
Why is the media so fixated on distorting the truth? Why does it matter how many people worked on a game? Stop this nonsense.
u/Possible_Jello8489
So the big problem with this is, (we can see it in the comments from people who do not understand that credits =/= developers) **is that you're just using another metric, to compare it to gam
u/Blacksad9999
The people who did the combat? They were outsourced. The people who did the music? They were outsourced, and SandFall only has a few musicians on staff. The people who did the animations from
u/teabagfrfr
For everyone imo. Indie games made by actually "just 30 people" will unfairly get compared to Clair Obsur, and investors in big studios will use it as an excuse to lay off more people. It al
u/DarkIcedWolf
And? 33 is miles more impressive in scope and design. Besides, that was before the big boom of gaming and before it became high def realism, it’s a damn Xbox 360 game ffs it’s comparing apple
u/BronzIsten
Reddit decided they want to believe in that lie from the article just so they can have something to bash the game over. Now that the racist claims didnt work they found another angle they can
u/DarkIcedWolf
It’s about 200 total devs, a fucking far cry from the thousands at major companies but since it’s ~200 it’s actually not an indie dev company. It’s like a grey area, it’s more like AA games b
u/mazaa66
Source on: the budget was over 60 million Because the dev team has said it was far less what people have estimated + core team was 33 people and of course they have outsourced Testers, musi
u/RobbSol
Why is the media so fixated on distorting the truth? Why does it matter how many people worked on a game? Stop this nonsense.

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