Open Source opportunity: Anti-vendor lock-in sentiment with file formats
The discussion highlights user frustration with proprietary 'complex' file formats used by giants like Microsoft to lock in users. This reinforces a strong sentiment against vendor lock-in and a demand for open standards and interoperability. Businesses can capitalize by promoting open-source alternatives, developing tools for seamless format conversion, or offering services that prioritize data portability and platform independence. Marketing efforts should focus on freedom, transparency, and user control over their data.
Origin Reddit Post
r/technology
LibreOffice calls out Microsoft for using "complex" file formats to lock in Office users -
Posted by u/barweis•07/20/2025
Top Comments
u/CCCBMMR
Markdown + Pandoc = whatever document format is needed.
u/stonkacquirer69
The default UI layout reminds me of Office 2003, which is what we had on our family computer at home as a kid.
u/thecmpguru
So confidently wrong. This can and did once happen to Microsoft already.
u/Dr4kin
A government could force them to. You could argue it is uncompetitive behavior, because it forces every company to use Office Products to use the files of other companies. They have a market
u/butapikachu
Screw microsoft and sloppy bloated garbage
u/HolyPommeDeTerre
I've been building office documents multiple times over the last 15 years. It always has been very complex and I never understood why. It's always very blunted. I always thought it was becaus
u/Practical-Piglet
Its ridiculous to think that companies would not lock in customers in their ecosystem in every way possible but its not ridiculous to demand regulations for anticonsumer behaviour
u/letmeruinthisforyou
Anything is possible but this sounds like a ridiculous scenario. Unlike IE or Google on iPhone search, nobody is forcing anyone to use Word. It is, frankly, much more complete than alternativ
u/bb0110
Have you used a very old version lately like ‘95? A little has changed.
u/SaltDeception
You can definitely open txt files in OneDrive on iOS. I have been doing it for years (and just double-checked to make sure I wasn’t crazy).
u/M0therN4ture
As open-source platforms gain more and more traction, the mainstream platforms increasingly restrict functionality to limit compatibility...
Streisand effect?
u/Magic_Sandwiches
the boomer interface its not mandatory
u/Landscape4737
Yep, Microsoft use “Microsoft XML” as their default file format, doesn’t even claim OOXML https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/compatibility/office-file-format-reference.
Then they use
u/EnthusiasmOnly22
.csv doesn’t save multiple sheets or any formula data though; right format for right job
u/b_a_t_m_4_n
Then you get locked in. I on the other hand don't really care what it looks like as long as it does the job, so I am not locked in.
"You do it to yourself, you do, and that's what really hur
u/Ky1arStern
Idk. I was mostly just trying to agree with you.
u/NaCl-more
I use LaTeX in overleaf because I was forced to learn it in uni.
Absolutely beautiful documents, but I wish the syntax and language isn’t so damn convoluted
u/TldrDev
Blender looks great now. For a long time, it had the least intuitive interface I've ever seen in software, but they really figured it out eventually.
Design in open source software is a com
u/EnthusiasmOnly22
.csv doesn’t save multiple sheets or any formula data though; right format for right job
u/CarlFriedrichGauss
XML is the worst format ever, you can really create hard to parse complete garbage while taking up a ton of storage space.
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Oh 💯. I am just talking smack/venting here. I use md/rst/tex (sphinx) just as often.
u/HKBFG
See also: Iphone Chargers, green text bubbles, google adsense, EV chargers, Visa, Ticketmaster, RealPage.
the era of companies getting to blatantly be anticompetitive just because they're bi
u/archontwo
It is the whole [OOXML debacle](https://techrights.org/o/2008/09/30/ooxml-scandal-late-secret/) all over again.
u/Landscape4737
Ok OnlyOffice
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Oh 💯. I am just talking smack/venting here. I use md/rst/tex (sphinx) just as often.
u/captainant
Unironically, this has been a very good use case for LLM's. Take my notes or document, and put them into LaTeX format. It's like magic
u/boli99
>extra bullshit
It's called "[embrace, extend and extinguish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish)"
u/7h4tguy
Or if you do just want basic formatting, then markdown (.md) files are ubiquitous the days and fairly easy to get sane formatting.
u/kawalerkw
One of the benefits of open source software is that it can be easier for community to customize. GIMP had alternative GUI imitating Photoshop for 20 years.
u/VMX
Take a look at OnlyOffice.
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Tbh im just venting (complaining with no solutions) here. I prefer working in Markdown because being explicit is easy, but my favorite is actually MySt with Sphinx-Design. Unfortunately, it's
u/nicgeolaw
First Open Standards, then Open Source Software.
Government organisations can, and sometimes do, legislate for standards in digital services & products.
Open Standards help to level the p
u/adaminc
You could try Only Office. It looks like an older version of MS Office.
u/[deleted]
Not true, I have 365 Business Basic and it get the same message trying to use Excel on Mac. Maybe it depends on the license? But the commenter above yours isn’t crazy
u/SaltDeception
You can definitely open txt files in OneDrive on iOS. I have been doing it for years (and just double-checked to make sure I wasn’t crazy).
u/M0therN4ture
As open-source platforms gain more and more traction, the mainstream platforms increasingly restrict functionality to limit compatibility...
Streisand effect?
u/tekniklee
I’m on my MAC tonight with excel installed via an active O365 license and I wasn’t able to edit a file because “you license only allows view only on Mac” 😤
u/Martin8412
Has gotten worse with every release after 2003.
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
And the xml situation is just trash. Why am I fighting with Word documents about formatting concerns? Im trying to make a bullet list, and you just throw extra spacing in sometimes? I try to
u/aft_punk
On the flip side of that coin, this strategy also results in locking people out their Office suite. Document files should be easily accessible and editable, regardless of the device you’re us
u/mailmehiermaar
You did not read the article i guess as it explains how MS is using the open formats in an intentionally convoluted way to lock in users
https://www.neowin.net/news/libreoffice-calls-out-mic
u/thewags05
I've used Latex for my thesis and papers I've published. For simpler documents it's way overkill. Once you know it it's great though. If you need to put in a lot of math, it might actually sa
u/Swab_Job
Try resetting your Office license and credentials on your machine, that's how I've fixed this issue before.
https://office-reset.com/
u/7h4tguy
Uh, nonsense? .docx is OpenXPS - [Open XML Paper Specification - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_XML_Paper_Specification).
Which was released as an open standard 16 years ago.
u/b00c
Supposedly Word is easier to automate.
I say I can better automate notepad.
u/butapikachu
Screw microsoft and sloppy bloated garbage
u/Well_Socialized
This sort of deliberate anti-interoperability move should be banned
u/b_a_t_m_4_n
Then you get locked in. I on the other hand don't really care what it looks like as long as it does the job, so I am not locked in.
"You do it to yourself, you do, and that's what really hur
u/Loki-L
We have been in this exact place before.
The main difference is that the last time LibreOffice was still OpenOffice.
u/EXTRAsharpcheddar
libreoffice is hopelessly broken on my PC. Tried everything short of reinstalling windows. Made a post in the sub and nobody's even seen the issue I'm facing before.
Were it not for that I'd
u/EXTRAsharpcheddar
libreoffice is hopelessly broken on my PC. Tried everything short of reinstalling windows. Made a post in the sub and nobody's even seen the issue I'm facing before.
Were it not for that I'd
u/AnalLingus217
Do you mean companies that set the standard and leave weak competitors behind?
How many people use Libra Office? How does that compare to Open Office, Polaris Office, Google docs, etc…
u/PM_ME_STUFF_N_THINGS
Clunky design is Microsoft's MO
u/JoshTheSquid
LibreOffice takes after the original Word layout prior to the ribbon situation. I get it though, it’s not modern at all. At the same time I kind of appreciate it for being utilitarian.
Have
u/jmpalermo
I'm more likely to attribute this to incompetence than malice, but I could be swayed to believe it's both...
u/zimspy
This is a challenge with most open source alternatives like GIMP, Inkspace, Blender etc.
The UI doesn't really feel modern.
u/archontwo
It is the whole [OOXML debacle](https://techrights.org/o/2008/09/30/ooxml-scandal-late-secret/) all over again.
u/thecmpguru
So confidently wrong. This can and did once happen to Microsoft already.
u/dingosaurus
What license do you have? Have you hit your install limit?
There’s no reason you should be getting this message if you’re properly licensed for M365.
My sub allows 5 installs across differe
u/radiantpenguin991
Yeah, I know for a fact our legal team still has some shit they do in Corel WordPerfect just for the Reveal Codes feature, which acts as an intermediary between the complexity of LATEX and th
u/M0therN4ture
As open-source platforms gain more and more traction, the mainstream platforms increasingly restrict functionality to limit compatibility...
Streisand effect?
u/Thekilldevilhill
I actually don't give a \*\*\*\* about how an interface looks anymore, especially if it's work related software. I work in the academic field (fundamental research) and see 1990 interfaces al
u/TldrDev
Blender looks great now. For a long time, it had the least intuitive interface I've ever seen in software, but they really figured it out eventually.
Design in open source software is a com
u/GingerSkulling
If anyone incompetent here is the Libre devs who complain about about an open source format from Microsoft.
u/CherryLongjump1989
A typesetting system is a compilation process. That's by definition. Even if you do it manually with a letterpress and movable type, the workers are called compositors - human compilers.
F
u/HolyPommeDeTerre
I've been building office documents multiple times over the last 15 years. It always has been very complex and I never understood why. It's always very blunted. I always thought it was becaus
u/TldrDev
Blender looks great now. For a long time, it had the least intuitive interface I've ever seen in software, but they really figured it out eventually.
Design in open source software is a com
u/jbourne71
Markdown time!
u/freredesalpes
Yet I can’t even read a txt file in OneDrive for iOS.
u/letmeruinthisforyou
I mean, on the one hand yes this is obviously true. On the other hand, it’s a bit ridiculous to complain that the company sinking huge cash into product development is trying to protect their
u/Equivalent-Cut-9253
It's the goddamn truth.
I could not be happier just using LibreOffice indtead, but I need to have Word as well due to receiving files in that format. I hate it equally every time.
u/Dr4kin
A government could force them to. You could argue it is uncompetitive behavior, because it forces every company to use Office Products to use the files of other companies. They have a market
u/Thekilldevilhill
I actually don't give a \*\*\*\* about how an interface looks anymore, especially if it's work related software. I work in the academic field (fundamental research) and see 1990 interfaces al
u/Swab_Job
Try resetting your Office license and credentials on your machine, that's how I've fixed this issue before.
https://office-reset.com/
u/dingosaurus
What license do you have? Have you hit your install limit?
There’s no reason you should be getting this message if you’re properly licensed for M365.
My sub allows 5 installs across differe
u/letmeruinthisforyou
I mean, on the one hand yes this is obviously true. On the other hand, it’s a bit ridiculous to complain that the company sinking huge cash into product development is trying to protect their
u/jbourne71
Markdown time!
u/oatmealparty
Formatting styles, headers, page formatting, data integration, multiple users editing one file. There have been significant changes in office since 95. Like, yeah "they both show words on a p
u/jbourne71
Markdown time!
u/adaminc
You could try Only Office. It looks like an older version of MS Office.
u/tekniklee
I’m on my MAC tonight with excel installed via an active O365 license and I wasn’t able to edit a file because “you license only allows view only on Mac” 😤
u/SaltDeception
You can definitely open txt files in OneDrive on iOS. I have been doing it for years (and just double-checked to make sure I wasn’t crazy).
u/TheGilmore
Business Basic is web app only.
u/CherryLongjump1989
LaTex is not a word processor, it is a typesetting system. The feature set is comparable to something like Adobe InDesign. For the **vast majority of writers**, a word processor is the prof
u/7h4tguy
Uh, nonsense? .docx is OpenXPS - [Open XML Paper Specification - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_XML_Paper_Specification).
Which was released as an open standard 16 years ago.
u/aitchnyu
11 years ago, I was referring the 14000 page Ecma doc on docx file format but I got most of the information from reverse engineering the file generated from Word.
u/kawalerkw
One of the benefits of open source software is that it can be easier for community to customize. GIMP had alternative GUI imitating Photoshop for 20 years.
u/can-of-bees
What's your suggestion for an alternate document markup data format? JSON? HTML?
u/Landscape4737
Yep, Microsoft use “Microsoft XML” as their default file format, doesn’t even claim OOXML https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/compatibility/office-file-format-reference.
Then they use
u/7h4tguy
You did not read my post. Yes, I agreed it's complicated, but LibreOffice saying they can't figure it out is just a dig, since they can go read the standard:
[https://www.loc.gov/preservatio
u/lunaappaloosa
I spend a lot of time explaining to students I TA that yes .csv is technically a different format and is going to work 100% of the time regardless of what program you’re using, and .xlsx file
u/bb0110
Have you used a very old version lately like ‘95? A little has changed.
u/Ihaveasmallwang
Windows 7 is too new for the interface they have. Maybe 98?
u/Well_Socialized
This sort of deliberate anti-interoperability move should be banned
u/TheKingOfDub
I would call them messy, clunky, and shitty formats
u/WeAreElectricity
Is your name Bill Microsoft?
u/Kokophelli
LOL. They’ve been doing this since 1990’s
u/7h4tguy
Uh, nonsense? .docx is OpenXPS - [Open XML Paper Specification - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_XML_Paper_Specification).
Which was released as an open standard 16 years ago.
u/Landscape4737
Ok OnlyOffice
u/7h4tguy
Or if you do just want basic formatting, then markdown (.md) files are ubiquitous the days and fairly easy to get sane formatting.
u/nox66
Same happened with Adobe PDF.
u/Swab_Job
Try resetting your Office license and credentials on your machine, that's how I've fixed this issue before.
https://office-reset.com/
u/thegreatgazoo
It has done that since Word 2 back in the 90s. Even more fun when it looked great on the screen but was a mess when it printed.
Ami Pro worked but it just couldn't keep market share.
u/Vinura
MS Word is becoming worse every year.
u/wysiwywg
‘..sinking huge cash into product…’
What t is fundamentally different from Office ‘95 and the latest cloud version?
Exactly, to lock you further in.
u/Piranata
I recommend LyX, it's a word processor based on LaTex formatting. https://www.lyx.org/
u/kawalerkw
Imagine you're working on something in MS Office and want to switch to other office suite. You choose something, open your files and they don't display the same way you saw in MS Office. Now
u/TheGilmore
Business Basic is web app only.
u/fallenouroboros
Isn’t that why things like standards exist though? It’s a tale as old as people, making something commonplace and then making it difficult to use specifically to maximize profits.
Edison tr
u/letmeruinthisforyou
“Uhhh akshualy guys, computers are just machines that operate on a representation of yes/no with the addition of some exclusive-or logic in sequence, so essentially nothing has changed since
u/CCCBMMR
Markdown + Pandoc = whatever document format is needed.
u/Equivalent-Cut-9253
It's the goddamn truth.
I could not be happier just using LibreOffice indtead, but I need to have Word as well due to receiving files in that format. I hate it equally every time.
u/VMX
Take a look at OnlyOffice.
u/captainant
Unironically, this has been a very good use case for LLM's. Take my notes or document, and put them into LaTeX format. It's like magic
u/JeebusChristBalls
Yeah, you going to use MSoffice, which despite some quirks, is still the only real office suit out there or are you going to use Libreoffice and have an honestly worse experience with less fe
u/nox66
Same happened with Adobe PDF.
u/PM_ME_STUFF_N_THINGS
Clunky design is Microsoft's MO
u/moofunk
An important distinction is that text compilers can generate documents from automated inputs of text, images, graphs, etc. of arbitrary complexity, over and over.
If you need a typeset daily
u/jdvhunt
As an MSP owner I am so beyond pissed off at Microsoft lately. First we get nearly nothing in terms of margin and all of their software has been neglected for months because of Copilot, which
u/Ky1arStern
Recently switched to Linux because I can't stand W11. LibreOffice is great, but it definitely feels like MicrosoftOffice from 15 years ago sometimes.
u/UlteriorCulture
This. I need to represent test case files for software as deeply nested LaTeX tables. I have a running conversation where I have described both formats in detail and all I need to do is uploa
u/pcurve
Would wouldn't MSFT do otherwise?
u/CherryLongjump1989
LaTex is not a word processor, it is a typesetting system. The feature set is comparable to something like Adobe InDesign. For the **vast majority of writers**, a word processor is the prof
u/zimspy
This is a challenge with most open source alternatives like GIMP, Inkspace, Blender etc.
The UI doesn't really feel modern.
u/RammRras
Sometimes I'm not able to properly adjust table column length and cell heights even by typing them manually. Like wtf are thinks so complicated?! And don't let me start complaining about copy
u/letmeruinthisforyou
Standards exist to facilitate interoperability when it’s in the interests of producers and consumers. But if a producer decides it isn’t and consumers agree, so what? If the standard is bette
u/TheKingOfDub
I would call them messy, clunky, and shitty formats
u/mailmehiermaar
You did not read the article i guess as it explains how MS is using the open formats in an intentionally convoluted way to lock in users
https://www.neowin.net/news/libreoffice-calls-out-mic
u/Martin8412
Has gotten worse with every release after 2003.
u/CherryLongjump1989
That's really just not true.
First, let's deal with your earlier claim properly. No word processor actually works as an "input" for LaTex, because LaTex is tightly coupled to its own markup
u/freredesalpes
Yeah you’re right, it’s the editor that’s different than a doc and I can’t copy and paste more than one line at a time. It’s also code snippets that I’m working with and haven’t tried with a
u/thecmpguru
So confidently wrong. This can and did once happen to Microsoft already.
u/tekniklee
I’m on my MAC tonight with excel installed via an active O365 license and I wasn’t able to edit a file because “you license only allows view only on Mac” 😤
u/7h4tguy
Uh, nonsense? .docx is OpenXPS - [Open XML Paper Specification - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_XML_Paper_Specification).
Which was released as an open standard 16 years ago.
u/Martin8412
Has gotten worse with every release after 2003.
u/Magic_Sandwiches
the boomer interface its not mandatory
u/CherryLongjump1989
A typesetting system is a compilation process. That's by definition. Even if you do it manually with a letterpress and movable type, the workers are called compositors - human compilers.
F
u/Pepband
I love GIMP. Totally support what they do, and its my go-to program. But goddamn if it isn't the worst UI I've ever used. In a lot of programs I use shortcuts just for the speed of them, but
u/Fuckspez42
“Complex” isn’t the right term here.
“Intentionally obfuscated” or “needlessly proprietary” fits the bill much better. The extra bullshit that MS adds to their file formats serves absolutel
u/thewags05
I've used Latex for my thesis and papers I've published. For simpler documents it's way overkill. Once you know it it's great though. If you need to put in a lot of math, it might actually sa
u/Dr4kin
A government could force them to. You could argue it is uncompetitive behavior, because it forces every company to use Office Products to use the files of other companies. They have a market
u/boxninja
~~The old .doc format was literally a memory dump of the Word Document running in the official Microsoft Word app. It doesn't get more locked in than that!~~
Edit: Research indicates this
u/Newtronic
Wow, is this like two decades too late. Microsoft’s XML format for word and excel has been standardized since around 2008 and LibreOffice is just now noticing?
u/nicgeolaw
First Open Standards, then Open Source Software.
Government organisations can, and sometimes do, legislate for standards in digital services & products.
Open Standards help to level the p
u/UlteriorCulture
This. I need to represent test case files for software as deeply nested LaTeX tables. I have a running conversation where I have described both formats in detail and all I need to do is uploa
u/JoshTheSquid
LibreOffice takes after the original Word layout prior to the ribbon situation. I get it though, it’s not modern at all. At the same time I kind of appreciate it for being utilitarian.
Have
u/ew73
For what it's worth, Word is really kind of still an amateur or mid-level tool when it comes to document processing.
If you need absolute control over the typesetting stuff, look to someth
u/Sedewt
Blender does look relatively modern now
u/allthemoreforthat
What on earth could cause you to defend corporations for using anti-competitive practices? Reminds me of the Apple soyboys defending the lightning cable until the EU protected consumer intere
u/ew73
For what it's worth, Word is really kind of still an amateur or mid-level tool when it comes to document processing.
If you need absolute control over the typesetting stuff, look to someth
u/letmeruinthisforyou
I mean, on the one hand yes this is obviously true. On the other hand, it’s a bit ridiculous to complain that the company sinking huge cash into product development is trying to protect their
u/lunaappaloosa
I spend a lot of time explaining to students I TA that yes .csv is technically a different format and is going to work 100% of the time regardless of what program you’re using, and .xlsx file
u/thewags05
I've used Latex for my thesis and papers I've published. For simpler documents it's way overkill. Once you know it it's great though. If you need to put in a lot of math, it might actually sa
u/Landscape4737
Parts of Adobes specification for PDF is on their website, it’s not an open standard, at least what their software pumps out isn’t.
u/JFHermes
An inkscape UI upgrade is in development at the moment I think. It's being worked on.
u/UlteriorCulture
This. I need to represent test case files for software as deeply nested LaTeX tables. I have a running conversation where I have described both formats in detail and all I need to do is uploa
u/stonkacquirer69
The default UI layout reminds me of Office 2003, which is what we had on our family computer at home as a kid.
u/nicgeolaw
First Open Standards, then Open Source Software.
Government organisations can, and sometimes do, legislate for standards in digital services & products.
Open Standards help to level the p
u/thephotoman
XML can be the backbone of a good file format. The issue is that the Microsoft file formats aren’t good because they have a lot of places where the spec says, “do this like Word 95 did” and n
u/Equivalent-Cut-9253
It's the goddamn truth.
I could not be happier just using LibreOffice indtead, but I need to have Word as well due to receiving files in that format. I hate it equally every time.
u/AnsibleAnswers
There are weird edge cases due to Microsoft shenanigans. It usually only shows itself if you use advanced features in the desktop version of Office.
It leads to a situation in which Micros
u/UsernameAvaylable
"Read only" is what you get if you just download office from microsoft without any license. So maybe mac and windows office are not the same license wise?
u/aft_punk
On the flip side of that coin, this strategy also results in locking people out their Office suite. Document files should be easily accessible and editable, regardless of the device you’re us
u/mahsab
That's not true. Older versions of Word or Excel have some specifics that can not be generalized if you want to preserve all the features of the document.
A Word 2000 document will look the
u/AnsibleAnswers
There’s really no reason to move fast on an open document format unless you are intentionally pushing non-standard features to gain a leg up on the competition. At that point, you’re just pre
u/CarlFriedrichGauss
XML is the worst format ever, you can really create hard to parse complete garbage while taking up a ton of storage space.
u/JFHermes
An inkscape UI upgrade is in development at the moment I think. It's being worked on.
u/Landscape4737
Ok OnlyOffice
u/BlueBirdBlow
I'm confused, what is keeping them locked in? Not like to argue, I legit don't know
u/ankercrank
If the gov forced open formats there would be a lot more competition here.
u/Pepband
I love GIMP. Totally support what they do, and its my go-to program. But goddamn if it isn't the worst UI I've ever used. In a lot of programs I use shortcuts just for the speed of them, but
u/dingosaurus
What license do you have? Have you hit your install limit?
There’s no reason you should be getting this message if you’re properly licensed for M365.
My sub allows 5 installs across differe
u/Landscape4737
Parts of Adobes specification for PDF is on their website, it’s not an open standard, at least what their software pumps out isn’t.
u/nox66
Same happened with Adobe PDF.
u/CherryLongjump1989
That's really just not true.
First, let's deal with your earlier claim properly. No word processor actually works as an "input" for LaTex, because LaTex is tightly coupled to its own markup
u/[deleted]
Not true, I have 365 Business Basic and it get the same message trying to use Excel on Mac. Maybe it depends on the license? But the commenter above yours isn’t crazy
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
And the xml situation is just trash. Why am I fighting with Word documents about formatting concerns? Im trying to make a bullet list, and you just throw extra spacing in sometimes? I try to
u/Hold_my_Dirk
It absolutely does and that’s why I like it.
u/Beliriel
Also CSV exists, which is read and writable by pretty much anything since it's basically a textfile. For most people they more than suffice to exchange basic spreadsheets and they are just ab
u/wysiwywg
‘..sinking huge cash into product…’
What t is fundamentally different from Office ‘95 and the latest cloud version?
Exactly, to lock you further in.
u/Balmung60
That's exactly why I like it. I've hated what Microsoft did with their office suite starting with the 2007 edition and the horrible "ribbon" they replaced the old toolbars with.
u/ankercrank
If the gov forced open formats there would be a lot more competition here.
u/lectroid
> the era of companies getting to blatantly be anticompetitive just because they’re big is over.
Right. Now they don’t even have to be big. Just willing to openly bribe our highest elect
u/FuzzelFox
I love how you got upvoted for saying essentially the same thing I did lmao. Reddit is dumb sometimes.
u/HKBFG
See also: Iphone Chargers, green text bubbles, google adsense, EV chargers, Visa, Ticketmaster, RealPage.
the era of companies getting to blatantly be anticompetitive just because they're bi
u/JeebusChristBalls
There is nothing on this planet that would get me to switch to Libreoffice from MS office. It is an inferior product for sure believe me, I tried to at one point.
u/LazamairAMD
I bet you those Microsoft shenanigans are due to some level of .net automation embedded within those documents, such as an active connection to a site/service. Something that cannot be recrea
u/Landscape4737
“The XML file formats”? Microsoft XML is not OOXML. Microsoft do not claim to support OOXML as their default file format, they are still very proprietary.
Microsoft introduced secret disp
u/ew73
For what it's worth, Word is really kind of still an amateur or mid-level tool when it comes to document processing.
If you need absolute control over the typesetting stuff, look to someth
u/CherryLongjump1989
A typesetting system is a compilation process. That's by definition. Even if you do it manually with a letterpress and movable type, the workers are called compositors - human compilers.
F
u/nicgeolaw
First Open Standards, then Open Source Software.
Government organisations can, and sometimes do, legislate for standards in digital services & products.
Open Standards help to level the p
u/Ihaveasmallwang
Windows 7 is too new for the interface they have. Maybe 98?
u/mailmehiermaar
You did not read the article i guess as it explains how MS is using the open formats in an intentionally convoluted way to lock in users
https://www.neowin.net/news/libreoffice-calls-out-mic
u/zimspy
This is a challenge with most open source alternatives like GIMP, Inkspace, Blender etc.
The UI doesn't really feel modern.
u/Devatator_
Discovered Typst. Using been using it for months and I'll keep using it, tho sadly it's not that popular if I ever want to publish something but for personal use it's pretty good and feels go
u/PM_ME_STUFF_N_THINGS
Clunky design is Microsoft's MO
u/RellenD
And?
The complaint is that they implement new features?
u/kawalerkw
I remember back in the day alternative PDF reader comparisons included percentage of elements that weren't displayed properly or at all.
u/meneldal2
The syntax isn't the issue, it's what happens when you get it wrong and the less than helpful error messages if you are not an expert.
u/Landscape4737
“The XML file formats”? Microsoft XML is not OOXML. Microsoft do not claim to support OOXML as their default file format, they are still very proprietary.
Microsoft introduced secret disp
u/AnalLingus217
Same could be said for video games, e-reader hardware and most especially…watch movements.
Are you saying that nobody should have the right to patent or protect their discoveries and produ
u/Magic_Sandwiches
the boomer interface its not mandatory
u/can-of-bees
What's your suggestion for an alternate document markup data format? JSON? HTML?
u/freredesalpes
Yet I can’t even read a txt file in OneDrive for iOS.
u/kawalerkw
Imagine you're working on something in MS Office and want to switch to other office suite. You choose something, open your files and they don't display the same way you saw in MS Office. Now
u/WeAreElectricity
Is your name Bill Microsoft?
u/tekniklee
I’m on my MAC tonight with excel installed via an active O365 license and I wasn’t able to edit a file because “you license only allows view only on Mac” 😤
u/Loki-L
We have been in this exact place before.
The main difference is that the last time LibreOffice was still OpenOffice.
u/moofunk
> LaTex is not a word processor, it is a typesetting system.
More basic is that LaTeX is a text compiler.
A word processor can function as input to a LaTeX system.
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
And the xml situation is just trash. Why am I fighting with Word documents about formatting concerns? Im trying to make a bullet list, and you just throw extra spacing in sometimes? I try to
u/mahsab
A bit hypocritical, since the still valid ISO standard ODF 1.0 and 1.1 are completely and utterly useless and incompatible with newer versions and were rushed only so they can be approved bef
u/butapikachu
Screw microsoft and sloppy bloated garbage
u/JFHermes
An inkscape UI upgrade is in development at the moment I think. It's being worked on.
u/steampunk-me
Honestly, the main reason I don't drop Word for LibreOffice is just how ugly it looks.
I can forgive compatibility issues arising every now and then as long as it's not an avalanche of erro
u/CarlFriedrichGauss
XML is the worst format ever, you can really create hard to parse complete garbage while taking up a ton of storage space.
u/FuzzelFox
I understand why people wouldn't like Office but frankly Word is much easier and more user friendly than LibreOffice. The complex file doesn't really matter when the result is that the docume
u/meneldal2
The syntax isn't the issue, it's what happens when you get it wrong and the less than helpful error messages if you are not an expert.
u/Devatator_
Discovered Typst. Using been using it for months and I'll keep using it, tho sadly it's not that popular if I ever want to publish something but for personal use it's pretty good and feels go
u/Newtronic
Wow, is this like two decades too late. Microsoft’s XML format for word and excel has been standardized since around 2008 and LibreOffice is just now noticing?
u/TheGilmore
Business Basic is web app only.
u/Vinura
MS Word is becoming worse every year.
u/wysiwywg
‘..sinking huge cash into product…’
What t is fundamentally different from Office ‘95 and the latest cloud version?
Exactly, to lock you further in.
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
And the xml situation is just trash. Why am I fighting with Word documents about formatting concerns? Im trying to make a bullet list, and you just throw extra spacing in sometimes? I try to
u/Dr4kin
How it is saved has little to do with the end result. They could also add features to the open standard if it didn't have all the features they wanted. How you create a document has in this c
u/Landscape4737
Parts of Adobes specification for PDF is on their website, it’s not an open standard, at least what their software pumps out isn’t.
u/BlueBirdBlow
I'm confused, what is keeping them locked in? Not like to argue, I legit don't know
u/Tarik_7
i was looking for this comment. LibreOffice opens .docx programs made in the latest version of MS office cloud. If it's doc or docx, LibreOffice opens it no problem.
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Oh 💯. I am just talking smack/venting here. I use md/rst/tex (sphinx) just as often.
u/HKBFG
See also: Iphone Chargers, green text bubbles, google adsense, EV chargers, Visa, Ticketmaster, RealPage.
the era of companies getting to blatantly be anticompetitive just because they're bi
u/lunaappaloosa
I spend a lot of time explaining to students I TA that yes .csv is technically a different format and is going to work 100% of the time regardless of what program you’re using, and .xlsx file
u/Vinura
MS Word is becoming worse every year.
u/mahsab
That's not true. Older versions of Word or Excel have some specifics that can not be generalized if you want to preserve all the features of the document.
A Word 2000 document will look the
u/freredesalpes
Yeah you’re right, it’s the editor that’s different than a doc and I can’t copy and paste more than one line at a time. It’s also code snippets that I’m working with and haven’t tried with a
u/lectroid
> the era of companies getting to blatantly be anticompetitive just because they’re big is over.
Right. Now they don’t even have to be big. Just willing to openly bribe our highest elect
u/aaramini
Microsoft Word...fighting your productivity since 1997
u/capricioustrilium
There are still Zune files in windows 11
u/mailmehiermaar
You did not read the article i guess as it explains how MS is using the open formats in an intentionally convoluted way to lock in users
https://www.neowin.net/news/libreoffice-calls-out-mic
u/Piranata
They switched to XML because ISO was planning on making Open document the standard. So, Microsoft developed OOXML (and rumors say a small bribe) to be included as an ISO standard.
u/Pepband
I love GIMP. Totally support what they do, and its my go-to program. But goddamn if it isn't the worst UI I've ever used. In a lot of programs I use shortcuts just for the speed of them, but
u/thephotoman
XML can be the backbone of a good file format. The issue is that the Microsoft file formats aren’t good because they have a lot of places where the spec says, “do this like Word 95 did” and n
u/Devatator_
Discovered Typst. Using been using it for months and I'll keep using it, tho sadly it's not that popular if I ever want to publish something but for personal use it's pretty good and feels go
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Tbh im just venting (complaining with no solutions) here. I prefer working in Markdown because being explicit is easy, but my favorite is actually MySt with Sphinx-Design. Unfortunately, it's
u/JeebusChristBalls
Yeah, you going to use MSoffice, which despite some quirks, is still the only real office suit out there or are you going to use Libreoffice and have an honestly worse experience with less fe
u/kawalerkw
I remember back in the day alternative PDF reader comparisons included percentage of elements that weren't displayed properly or at all.
u/UsernameAvaylable
Yeah, that message you get if you have no license at all...
u/VMX
Take a look at OnlyOffice.
u/Well_Socialized
This sort of deliberate anti-interoperability move should be banned
u/TheKingOfDub
I would call them messy, clunky, and shitty formats
u/UsernameAvaylable
Yeah, that message you get if you have no license at all...
u/dingosaurus
What license do you have? Have you hit your install limit?
There’s no reason you should be getting this message if you’re properly licensed for M365.
My sub allows 5 installs across differe
u/BlueBirdBlow
I'm confused, what is keeping them locked in? Not like to argue, I legit don't know
u/fallenouroboros
Isn’t that why things like standards exist though? It’s a tale as old as people, making something commonplace and then making it difficult to use specifically to maximize profits.
Edison tr
u/radiantpenguin991
Yeah, I know for a fact our legal team still has some shit they do in Corel WordPerfect just for the Reveal Codes feature, which acts as an intermediary between the complexity of LATEX and th
u/steampunk-me
Honestly, the main reason I don't drop Word for LibreOffice is just how ugly it looks.
I can forgive compatibility issues arising every now and then as long as it's not an avalanche of erro
u/letmeruinthisforyou
Then you should stop using it and use one of the alternative products that you think are better? Wouldn’t that make you feel better?
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Don't take it so personally, I have to use it for work. I do use other products, Google, Libre, etc. Word is by far the best, but the xml format cripples the product. You only notice this whe
u/FuzzelFox
That's why I think it's funny lol
u/NaCl-more
I use LaTeX in overleaf because I was forced to learn it in uni.
Absolutely beautiful documents, but I wish the syntax and language isn’t so damn convoluted
u/aft_punk
On the flip side of that coin, this strategy also results in locking people out their Office suite. Document files should be easily accessible and editable, regardless of the device you’re us
u/boli99
>extra bullshit
It's called "[embrace, extend and extinguish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish)"
u/DocCaliban
I own a small business and am in the process of deciding what to standardize on. I was a tech nerd for decades, ran Office since 2.0, worked at MS for a long while, switched to Mac and tried
u/Wielant
Good point if a billion dollar company can work with another billion dollar company an open source option should be able too just as easily. I’m sure Microsoft making an inaccessible file for
u/stonkacquirer69
The default UI layout reminds me of Office 2003, which is what we had on our family computer at home as a kid.
u/Secret-Sundae-1847
Yeah if Google can work with office products then so can Libre.
u/letmeruinthisforyou
I mean, on the one hand yes this is obviously true. On the other hand, it’s a bit ridiculous to complain that the company sinking huge cash into product development is trying to protect their
u/soonnow
> Nothing and nobody can force MS to comply with a standard for the benefit of other products.
Microsoft published it's old file [format reference](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/offi
u/Practical-Piglet
Its ridiculous to think that companies would not lock in customers in their ecosystem in every way possible but its not ridiculous to demand regulations for anticonsumer behaviour
u/aitchnyu
People who hate LO immediately take to Onlyoffice. Guess it's the familiar ribbon toolbar.
u/captainant
Unironically, this has been a very good use case for LLM's. Take my notes or document, and put them into LaTeX format. It's like magic
u/soonnow
> Nothing and nobody can force MS to comply with a standard for the benefit of other products.
Microsoft published it's old file [format reference](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/offi
u/Dr4kin
A government could force them to. You could argue it is uncompetitive behavior, because it forces every company to use Office Products to use the files of other companies. They have a market
u/can-of-bees
What's your suggestion for an alternate document markup data format? JSON? HTML?
u/Piranata
I recommend LyX, it's a word processor based on LaTex formatting. https://www.lyx.org/
u/JeebusChristBalls
There is nothing on this planet that would get me to switch to Libreoffice from MS office. It is an inferior product for sure believe me, I tried to at one point.
u/kawalerkw
One of the benefits of open source software is that it can be easier for community to customize. GIMP had alternative GUI imitating Photoshop for 20 years.
u/aaramini
Microsoft Word...fighting your productivity since 1997
u/NaCl-more
docx, xlsx, etc are actually just zip files. It’s what is inside those zip files that is proprietary and undocumented
u/wysiwywg
‘..sinking huge cash into product…’
What t is fundamentally different from Office ‘95 and the latest cloud version?
Exactly, to lock you further in.
u/7h4tguy
Yes but you can say the same thing about other alternative formats which are as capable, like PDF. See the reddit thread comment linked above.
It's not really shenanigans, it's just that the
u/Landscape4737
“The XML file formats”? Microsoft XML is not OOXML. Microsoft do not claim to support OOXML as their default file format, they are still very proprietary.
Microsoft introduced secret disp
u/ew73
For what it's worth, Word is really kind of still an amateur or mid-level tool when it comes to document processing.
If you need absolute control over the typesetting stuff, look to someth
u/JoshTheSquid
LibreOffice takes after the original Word layout prior to the ribbon situation. I get it though, it’s not modern at all. At the same time I kind of appreciate it for being utilitarian.
Have
u/CherryLongjump1989
LaTex is not a word processor, it is a typesetting system. The feature set is comparable to something like Adobe InDesign. For the **vast majority of writers**, a word processor is the prof
u/JaggedMetalOs
Companies that have effective monopoly in some area should be treated differently, yes.
u/green_gold_purple
That’s a nice story, but that’s not how innovation in the private sector works. There are competing products that are free to use whatever format they want. They’re not forcing anybody to use
u/b00c
Supposedly Word is easier to automate.
I say I can better automate notepad.
u/michaeldt
Imagine Ferrari created an open standard that allowed their engines to be used in any other car and as part of that required 1000 different and unique bolts in order to mount it? Completely u
u/adaminc
You could try Only Office. It looks like an older version of MS Office.
u/letmeruinthisforyou
They need the subscription money for sure. But they don’t need to kill third party products — they’re just not very good!
u/mahsab
That's not true. Older versions of Word or Excel have some specifics that can not be generalized if you want to preserve all the features of the document.
A Word 2000 document will look the
u/Newtronic
Wow, is this like two decades too late. Microsoft’s XML format for word and excel has been standardized since around 2008 and LibreOffice is just now noticing?
u/zacker150
Bullshit. Time to market is king.
u/NaCl-more
I use LaTeX in overleaf because I was forced to learn it in uni.
Absolutely beautiful documents, but I wish the syntax and language isn’t so damn convoluted
u/7h4tguy
Or if you do just want basic formatting, then markdown (.md) files are ubiquitous the days and fairly easy to get sane formatting.
u/michaeldt
Imagine Ferrari created an open standard that allowed their engines to be used in any other car and as part of that required 1000 different and unique bolts in order to mount it? Completely u
u/freredesalpes
Yet I can’t even read a txt file in OneDrive for iOS.
u/Sedewt
Blender does look relatively modern now
u/geekaustin_777
Apple does it with their Photos App. You can move the library to an external drive.
u/fallenouroboros
Isn’t that why things like standards exist though? It’s a tale as old as people, making something commonplace and then making it difficult to use specifically to maximize profits.
Edison tr
u/boli99
>extra bullshit
It's called "[embrace, extend and extinguish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish)"
u/Dylando_Calrissian
As someone who works in tech, this is far more likely to be accidental from Microsoft than an organised strategy.
MS office has a HUGE number of obscure features and settings added over de
u/lectroid
> the era of companies getting to blatantly be anticompetitive just because they’re big is over.
Right. Now they don’t even have to be big. Just willing to openly bribe our highest elect
u/b00c
Supposedly Word is easier to automate.
I say I can better automate notepad.
u/Ill_Football9443
The UI has changed, and more features added, but the final output hasn't, characters on a page.
'95 had tablets, tabs, etc. just the same as today's files.
u/soonnow
> Nothing and nobody can force MS to comply with a standard for the benefit of other products.
Microsoft published it's old file [format reference](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/offi
u/michaeldt
Imagine Ferrari created an open standard that allowed their engines to be used in any other car and as part of that required 1000 different and unique bolts in order to mount it? Completely u
u/CCCBMMR
Markdown + Pandoc = whatever document format is needed.
u/Practical-Piglet
Its ridiculous to think that companies would not lock in customers in their ecosystem in every way possible but its not ridiculous to demand regulations for anticonsumer behaviour
u/Practical-Piglet
Its ridiculous to think that companies would not lock in customers in their ecosystem in every way possible but its not ridiculous to demand regulations for anticonsumer behaviour
u/kawalerkw
Imagine you're working on something in MS Office and want to switch to other office suite. You choose something, open your files and they don't display the same way you saw in MS Office. Now
u/UsernameAvaylable
"Read only" is what you get if you just download office from microsoft without any license. So maybe mac and windows office are not the same license wise?
u/RedEd024
You can open a .docx with 7zip or similar as a compressed file. How complex is it if a freeware compression program can open it?
u/archontwo
It is the whole [OOXML debacle](https://techrights.org/o/2008/09/30/ooxml-scandal-late-secret/) all over again.
u/Landscape4737
Yep, Microsoft use “Microsoft XML” as their default file format, doesn’t even claim OOXML https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/compatibility/office-file-format-reference.
Then they use
u/7h4tguy
It already is an open standard. Just like PDF is. Saying the government should force Office to change to use PDF to enrich Adobe at their expense is batty. The specs are fully specced and ope
u/ankercrank
If the gov forced open formats there would be a lot more competition here.
u/RammRras
Sometimes I'm not able to properly adjust table column length and cell heights even by typing them manually. Like wtf are thinks so complicated?! And don't let me start complaining about copy
u/UsernameAvaylable
"Read only" is what you get if you just download office from microsoft without any license. So maybe mac and windows office are not the same license wise?
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Oh 💯. I am just talking smack/venting here. I use md/rst/tex (sphinx) just as often.
u/Sedewt
Blender does look relatively modern now
u/RiderLibertas
I really want to switch but I would lose all my macros. I made them so long ago I don't even remember how I did it now.
u/The_All-Range_Atomic
Tbh, I find the game of needing to figure out what fucking tab Microsoft nested whatever random feature under so annoying.
u/aitchnyu
People who hate LO immediately take to Onlyoffice. Guess it's the familiar ribbon toolbar.
u/AnsibleAnswers
Microsoft implements non-standard elements in Office well before they find their way into the standard’s documentation.
u/The_All-Range_Atomic
Is it really? I just wrote a resume in LibreOffice and had zero issues or thought about hopping on my work machine with Word.
They even added full dark mode, if that's what fancies you.
u/freredesalpes
Yeah you’re right, it’s the editor that’s different than a doc and I can’t copy and paste more than one line at a time. It’s also code snippets that I’m working with and haven’t tried with a
u/radiantpenguin991
Yeah, I know for a fact our legal team still has some shit they do in Corel WordPerfect just for the Reveal Codes feature, which acts as an intermediary between the complexity of LATEX and th
u/kawalerkw
I remember back in the day alternative PDF reader comparisons included percentage of elements that weren't displayed properly or at all.
u/mahsab
A bit hypocritical, since the still valid ISO standard ODF 1.0 and 1.1 are completely and utterly useless and incompatible with newer versions and were rushed only so they can be approved bef
u/pcurve
Would wouldn't MSFT do otherwise?
u/keytotheboard
I would love to know the thought process behind people with statements like yours. Do you actually believe the things you say? Do you just spout shit for fun? Why?
LibreOffice is owned by Th
u/Fuckspez42
“Complex” isn’t the right term here.
“Intentionally obfuscated” or “needlessly proprietary” fits the bill much better. The extra bullshit that MS adds to their file formats serves absolutel
u/fallenouroboros
Isn’t that why things like standards exist though? It’s a tale as old as people, making something commonplace and then making it difficult to use specifically to maximize profits.
Edison tr
u/Piranata
I recommend LyX, it's a word processor based on LaTex formatting. https://www.lyx.org/
u/steampunk-me
Honestly, the main reason I don't drop Word for LibreOffice is just how ugly it looks.
I can forgive compatibility issues arising every now and then as long as it's not an avalanche of erro
u/thephotoman
XML can be the backbone of a good file format. The issue is that the Microsoft file formats aren’t good because they have a lot of places where the spec says, “do this like Word 95 did” and n
u/NaCl-more
I use LaTeX in overleaf because I was forced to learn it in uni.
Absolutely beautiful documents, but I wish the syntax and language isn’t so damn convoluted
u/Possible-Put8922
Who still uses MS Office when Google is free?
u/UsernameAvaylable
Yeah, that message you get if you have no license at all...
u/meneldal2
The syntax isn't the issue, it's what happens when you get it wrong and the less than helpful error messages if you are not an expert.
u/JeebusChristBalls
There is nothing on this planet that would get me to switch to Libreoffice from MS office. It is an inferior product for sure believe me, I tried to at one point.
u/b_a_t_m_4_n
Then you get locked in. I on the other hand don't really care what it looks like as long as it does the job, so I am not locked in.
"You do it to yourself, you do, and that's what really hur
u/moofunk
> LaTex is not a word processor, it is a typesetting system.
More basic is that LaTeX is a text compiler.
A word processor can function as input to a LaTeX system.
u/SaltDeception
You can definitely open txt files in OneDrive on iOS. I have been doing it for years (and just double-checked to make sure I wasn’t crazy).
u/freredesalpes
Yeah you’re right, it’s the editor that’s different than a doc and I can’t copy and paste more than one line at a time. It’s also code snippets that I’m working with and haven’t tried with a
u/aitchnyu
11 years ago, I was referring the 14000 page Ecma doc on docx file format but I got most of the information from reverse engineering the file generated from Word.
u/bb0110
Have you used a very old version lately like ‘95? A little has changed.
u/Loki-L
We have been in this exact place before.
The main difference is that the last time LibreOffice was still OpenOffice.
u/letmeruinthisforyou
Is it anti consumer behavior? I think that’s a truly and honestly open question. I don’t think it is, although I totally recognize the arguments to the contrary and they are valid. But to ac
u/freredesalpes
Yet I can’t even read a txt file in OneDrive for iOS.
u/Forsaken_Celery8197
Tbh im just venting (complaining with no solutions) here. I prefer working in Markdown because being explicit is easy, but my favorite is actually MySt with Sphinx-Design. Unfortunately, it's
u/Fuckspez42
“Complex” isn’t the right term here.
“Intentionally obfuscated” or “needlessly proprietary” fits the bill much better. The extra bullshit that MS adds to their file formats serves absolutel
u/moofunk
> LaTex is not a word processor, it is a typesetting system.
More basic is that LaTeX is a text compiler.
A word processor can function as input to a LaTeX system.
u/bb0110
Have you used a very old version lately like ‘95? A little has changed.
u/RammRras
Sometimes I'm not able to properly adjust table column length and cell heights even by typing them manually. Like wtf are thinks so complicated?! And don't let me start complaining about copy
u/HolyPommeDeTerre
I've been building office documents multiple times over the last 15 years. It always has been very complex and I never understood why. It's always very blunted. I always thought it was becaus
u/WeAreElectricity
Is your name Bill Microsoft?
u/[deleted]
Not true, I have 365 Business Basic and it get the same message trying to use Excel on Mac. Maybe it depends on the license? But the commenter above yours isn’t crazy
u/Ihaveasmallwang
Windows 7 is too new for the interface they have. Maybe 98?
u/moofunk
An important distinction is that text compilers can generate documents from automated inputs of text, images, graphs, etc. of arbitrary complexity, over and over.
If you need a typeset daily
u/aitchnyu
People who hate LO immediately take to Onlyoffice. Guess it's the familiar ribbon toolbar.